miththoo
11-07 11:35 PM
Yes I did do quite a bit of trading, sometimes on phone from here...It all stopped when they suspended my account for lack of PAN information.
Thanks. But then how did you deal with the tax liability in India ? Did you file the tax return at the end of year or was the capital gain tax deducted at source by the bank itself ?
Thanks. But then how did you deal with the tax liability in India ? Did you file the tax return at the end of year or was the capital gain tax deducted at source by the bank itself ?
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swarnapuri
05-28 06:13 PM
tired of the long wait....
gcnotfiledyet
02-24 06:06 PM
i agree. how about sending flowers to precident with message that if half million legal immigrant waiting in EB get GC, will definitely buy home, so it will help to improve US Housing crisis.
You mean to say sell US real estate for GC/citizenship? I don't see this going very far. I can see anti immigrants waiting for this one. Best is to lobby using aides of big corporations, developing relationship with lobbyists who already have connections, hiring lawyers, developing strong case, donations in election campaigns etc. All of this needs loads and loads of money. Are we ready to donate to IV and build strong lobbying group for our cause? That is the only way to change our current situation.
Sending flowers, sending pizzas, sending all these proposals will only fall on deaf ears. Congress understands language of money to pass laws, Rest of the country/orgranizations understand language of laws/court.
You mean to say sell US real estate for GC/citizenship? I don't see this going very far. I can see anti immigrants waiting for this one. Best is to lobby using aides of big corporations, developing relationship with lobbyists who already have connections, hiring lawyers, developing strong case, donations in election campaigns etc. All of this needs loads and loads of money. Are we ready to donate to IV and build strong lobbying group for our cause? That is the only way to change our current situation.
Sending flowers, sending pizzas, sending all these proposals will only fall on deaf ears. Congress understands language of money to pass laws, Rest of the country/orgranizations understand language of laws/court.
2011 kim kardashian twitter pic
gunabcd
06-28 03:57 PM
This is not good. My PERM labor is stuck in Atlanta, I was hoping to apply I-140 pp since my 6th year H1 is expiring Dec, 07. If I can get my I-140 approved then I'll have to leave.
1. If your labor was filed in Nov 06 or earlier then you can file for 7th year extension (based on rule that labor pending for more than 365 days)
2. I'm not 100% sure but i think when your labor is approved if PDs are current, you can file i-140, 485, EAD together and get EAD by before your visa expires and you would be fine.
3. Labor substitution will not be allowed after July 17th, and there are a lot approved labors whose beneficiaries have left the company. Employers are willing to use these labors for whatever they get (excuse me!). If you really want to stay in US, find an approved labor with PD older than Nov 06 and then file I140/485/EAD, if you don't get EAD by Dec 07 then file 7th year ext based on the GC pending more than 365 days. Hurry up for labor..
1. If your labor was filed in Nov 06 or earlier then you can file for 7th year extension (based on rule that labor pending for more than 365 days)
2. I'm not 100% sure but i think when your labor is approved if PDs are current, you can file i-140, 485, EAD together and get EAD by before your visa expires and you would be fine.
3. Labor substitution will not be allowed after July 17th, and there are a lot approved labors whose beneficiaries have left the company. Employers are willing to use these labors for whatever they get (excuse me!). If you really want to stay in US, find an approved labor with PD older than Nov 06 and then file I140/485/EAD, if you don't get EAD by Dec 07 then file 7th year ext based on the GC pending more than 365 days. Hurry up for labor..
more...
pappu
10-13 07:40 AM
The silicon link does not work. Have they removed the article???
try now
http://management.silicon.com/careers/0,39024671,39163118,00.htm
management.silicon.com/careers/0,39024671,39163118,00.htm
try now
http://management.silicon.com/careers/0,39024671,39163118,00.htm
management.silicon.com/careers/0,39024671,39163118,00.htm
snathan
04-21 12:40 PM
Hello,
i am lawful permanent resident. I want to bring my parents here permanently. I got nobody in India to take care of my parents.
When i was small, my parents took care of me. When i need them, they are their for me.
Now my parents need me. But i am not their for them. I feel very guilty and sad. I want to bring my parents in US. So i can take care of them.
How can i bring my parents permanently.
I know, i can bring them after i get citizenship, that is too long wait.
i just want to bring them now. So they can have good life with me. Anybody know, how can i bring them in US soon.
i saw some petition signed by many Indians for this request. Can somebody please go forward with this.
Current president will understand our request and help us. He is very nice and kind person. He loves family and his mother in law lives with his family. He knows values of grand parents.
Indians live with family, that makes Indian family stronger and less divorce. And Indian kids are well taken care by grand parents. So they are well behaved and best kids.
We need this permission. Please work together and get this permission.
I read this in a website. Is this possible? I want to explore all possible steps.
Please help.
God bless you.
Green Card for Parents - Sponsoring Parents for Green Card
Green Card Process for My Parents (Mother, Father)
An immigrant (also called a "lawful permanent resident" and Green Card holder) is a foreign national who has been granted the privilege of living and working permanently in the United States. Your parents (mother, father) must go through a multi-step process to obtain a Green Card and become an immigrant. First, the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) must approve an immigrant petition that you file for your parents. Second, the State Department must give your parents an immigrant visa number, even if they are already in the United States. Third, if your parents are already in the United States legally, they may apply to adjust to permanent resident status. If they are outside the United States, they will be notified to go to the local U.S. Consulate to complete the processing for an immigrant visa (Green Card).
:rolleyes: :D
i am lawful permanent resident. I want to bring my parents here permanently. I got nobody in India to take care of my parents.
When i was small, my parents took care of me. When i need them, they are their for me.
Now my parents need me. But i am not their for them. I feel very guilty and sad. I want to bring my parents in US. So i can take care of them.
How can i bring my parents permanently.
I know, i can bring them after i get citizenship, that is too long wait.
i just want to bring them now. So they can have good life with me. Anybody know, how can i bring them in US soon.
i saw some petition signed by many Indians for this request. Can somebody please go forward with this.
Current president will understand our request and help us. He is very nice and kind person. He loves family and his mother in law lives with his family. He knows values of grand parents.
Indians live with family, that makes Indian family stronger and less divorce. And Indian kids are well taken care by grand parents. So they are well behaved and best kids.
We need this permission. Please work together and get this permission.
I read this in a website. Is this possible? I want to explore all possible steps.
Please help.
God bless you.
Green Card for Parents - Sponsoring Parents for Green Card
Green Card Process for My Parents (Mother, Father)
An immigrant (also called a "lawful permanent resident" and Green Card holder) is a foreign national who has been granted the privilege of living and working permanently in the United States. Your parents (mother, father) must go through a multi-step process to obtain a Green Card and become an immigrant. First, the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) must approve an immigrant petition that you file for your parents. Second, the State Department must give your parents an immigrant visa number, even if they are already in the United States. Third, if your parents are already in the United States legally, they may apply to adjust to permanent resident status. If they are outside the United States, they will be notified to go to the local U.S. Consulate to complete the processing for an immigrant visa (Green Card).
:rolleyes: :D
more...
Madhuri
04-13 04:30 PM
Yes, they know what they do as far as globalization is concerned.
IT and BPO outsourcing is also leading to Americanization of Indian youth and Indian youth are spending their high salaries on American products. In no time you will see American fast food chains, groceries, and many American MNCs cashing on a Americanized Indian crowd and neutralize ( and will eventually exceed the investments they make).
This is the beginning of Americanization. Most of you will not understand what I say because you are here in US for a long time and being first generation immigrants (on a limbo) keep up with your tradition. Americanization is like a slow bleed. IT and BPO is investment. Returns will come in form of MNCs and businesses and finally benefit American economy.
Just go back to India and look into the ITand BPO companies and lifestyles of people there. it will be 5 times higher than what we follow here as the Americanization is already induced.
Bottomline, do not underestimate America. They know what they do.
IT and BPO outsourcing is also leading to Americanization of Indian youth and Indian youth are spending their high salaries on American products. In no time you will see American fast food chains, groceries, and many American MNCs cashing on a Americanized Indian crowd and neutralize ( and will eventually exceed the investments they make).
This is the beginning of Americanization. Most of you will not understand what I say because you are here in US for a long time and being first generation immigrants (on a limbo) keep up with your tradition. Americanization is like a slow bleed. IT and BPO is investment. Returns will come in form of MNCs and businesses and finally benefit American economy.
Just go back to India and look into the ITand BPO companies and lifestyles of people there. it will be 5 times higher than what we follow here as the Americanization is already induced.
Bottomline, do not underestimate America. They know what they do.
2010 kim kardashian twitter pic
485Mbe4001
07-22 02:04 PM
I have sent letters and contacted my congressman so many times that i am beinging to doubt that they even care. The staff understands the issue, provide sympathetic answers, but overall there is little progress. Everyone agrees that this bill is good and non controvertial.
I sent 5 letters, to congressman, senators and Mr. President also. (over reaction, isn't it?%$)
Gurus, keep sending letters this is good for EB3-I.. I guess...
I sent 5 letters, to congressman, senators and Mr. President also. (over reaction, isn't it?%$)
Gurus, keep sending letters this is good for EB3-I.. I guess...
more...
sgupta33
08-14 01:02 PM
Hello,
With regards to the fact sheet, I wonder if it might be useful to include statistics on how much labor/money the US loses when high skilled workers immigrate to Canada or go back to their home country after being unsuccessful in obtaining their GC? Perhaps such stats are not available, but something along these lines that highlights losses to the US might be useful in bringing attention to what we contribute.
With regards to the fact sheet, I wonder if it might be useful to include statistics on how much labor/money the US loses when high skilled workers immigrate to Canada or go back to their home country after being unsuccessful in obtaining their GC? Perhaps such stats are not available, but something along these lines that highlights losses to the US might be useful in bringing attention to what we contribute.
hair Kim Kardashian
chanduv23
05-10 03:24 PM
My 4th contribution today $100 - from my bank
Immigration Voice
Member ID : chanduv23 $100.00 05/16
Contributed $400 so far along with this.
IV is doing a great job. Great going IV.
Immigration Voice
Member ID : chanduv23 $100.00 05/16
Contributed $400 so far along with this.
IV is doing a great job. Great going IV.
more...
tides&ebbs
04-03 11:40 AM
I logged in this morning to get a regular update and came across this thread.
I am surprised to this discussion and the heated debate. Tides and Ebbs are a part of what we do. I think we must all be satisfied that we have IV to represent us. Think about it guys, we would have no voice if it were not for IV. I sincerely hope something comes out of all this efforts that all of us have put in. We have a good thing going here and lets not stop.
Even if nothing happens, I will be content that we have made efforts. Not just a tiny efforts but a big ones. Kudos to everyone who is contributing ideas and money. Keep the good work going and let us know what we have to do to help you all.
tidesandebbs
I am surprised to this discussion and the heated debate. Tides and Ebbs are a part of what we do. I think we must all be satisfied that we have IV to represent us. Think about it guys, we would have no voice if it were not for IV. I sincerely hope something comes out of all this efforts that all of us have put in. We have a good thing going here and lets not stop.
Even if nothing happens, I will be content that we have made efforts. Not just a tiny efforts but a big ones. Kudos to everyone who is contributing ideas and money. Keep the good work going and let us know what we have to do to help you all.
tidesandebbs
hot kim kardashian twitter pic
funny
09-26 03:15 PM
.
more...
house kim kardashian twitter pic
485Mbe4001
07-18 12:26 PM
Was there a bill to create this category or this was decision taken by the USCIS.
Its a good move, I know that this initiative was started by an Officer from US Army whose interpreter was getting death threats for helping the US. When he saw that it was not an isolated incidence he started lobbying the state department to create a separate category. I have been following that story for a couple of months, but was not aware that a bill was passed to create a new category or visas. (i am sure, that USCIS cannot take a unilateral decision to add more visas or else why would we be begging for recapture bills)
www.informationweek.com/news/management/h1b/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=209100686
Its a good move, I know that this initiative was started by an Officer from US Army whose interpreter was getting death threats for helping the US. When he saw that it was not an isolated incidence he started lobbying the state department to create a separate category. I have been following that story for a couple of months, but was not aware that a bill was passed to create a new category or visas. (i am sure, that USCIS cannot take a unilateral decision to add more visas or else why would we be begging for recapture bills)
www.informationweek.com/news/management/h1b/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=209100686
tattoo kim kardashian twitter pic
amitkhare77
12-30 11:56 PM
true, my green card was filled EB 3 Software Engineer, today I am an architect, jumped 3 level up . I dont know why you can't get promoted.
You can still get promoted while on H1B just don't give up hope. If you're not getting promoted even if you're performing well, then there's something fishy going on with your employer.
You can still get promoted while on H1B just don't give up hope. If you're not getting promoted even if you're performing well, then there's something fishy going on with your employer.
more...
pictures kim kardashian twitter pic
akhilmahajan
08-22 04:47 PM
Can someone please post the updates if their cases approved. Only the ones whose cases have been pending for more than 60 days. Thank you.
Current EAD expiring September 3rd week.
Efiled on May 29th at TSC. FP done on June 28th.
Card Production Ordered August 18th (81st day).
Cards Received August 22nd (85th Day).
Validity 2 Years.
Let me know if you have any questions.
GO IV GO.
Current EAD expiring September 3rd week.
Efiled on May 29th at TSC. FP done on June 28th.
Card Production Ordered August 18th (81st day).
Cards Received August 22nd (85th Day).
Validity 2 Years.
Let me know if you have any questions.
GO IV GO.
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coolvigo
11-05 10:25 PM
Dear friend
It looks like you can show some light on my stuggle with ICICI bank to deposit money in My ICICI NRE account.
Story is like this, I went to India this summer deposited money to several mutual funds from my ICICI NRe account. One of the investment (in franklin ) was wrong by the mistake of my agent ( because US person can not invest in some of the US based mututal funds and frankln is US based fund) So I had to struggle to get money back from Franklin, as it was not proper investment ( wer mentioned NRE US based in forms, so they should have out right rejected investment, but they alloted it and then I have to fght back to get it returned)
Luckly due to my correct application I was able to get money back from franklin. they issued RS check, which I tried to deposit to my NRE account at ICICI bank. ICICI rejected check saying it is in RS. I tried to persue them it is REFUND FROM MUTUAL FUND (NRE INVESTMENT) from the same ICICI account but they still wants the proof that it NRE money. I have still this check bouncing back between me and ICCI bank. I also approached franklin to get letter. This time they have qouted some earlier RBI rule ( I have not read letter) and I am trying to redeposit that with check again.
Here in this My bigger question is we all are investing lot of Money from NRE account in Mutual funds and other investment options available to US in India as NRI. but when it comes to getting money back in our NRE account ( naturally all returns/refunds from India investment will be in RUPEES CHECKS ONLY) then we have big trouble like One I am facing right now.
SO DOES OUR INVESTMENT IS TRUELY REPRETRIABLE.
WE CAN GET OUR ORIGINAL INVESTMENT AS WELL AS GAINS ON THAT BACK TO NRE ACCOUNT OR NOT
IS IT THE ICICI BANK ONLY or ALL OTHER BANKS ARE GIVING TROUBLE wHEN WE TRY TO REDEPOSIT OUR MONEY ( in rupees) back to our NRE account.
Please explain your experiences in this regard.
If possible also provide links that talk in more details about REPRETRIABILITY OF NRE INVESTMENT
Also let me know which is best NRE bank to work with without any such hassles in India?
Dude,
ICICI sucks......i hate those guys.....their claims are big but poor banking and customer service......personally i have found SBI to be best although they are little slow.
On the top of it....sending money for investment is a bad idea......I have already lost money in it....and now facing issues getting money back.
In the whole episode, I lost so much peace of mind that money that grew in India was not worth........I guess there is a limit to what we want but greed inside us still ask us to invest.....let it be hard way....but I have learnt a lesson....if I have to live in US....it is better that I find investment opportunities here and live a "peaceful life". At the end we all need peace !!!
It looks like you can show some light on my stuggle with ICICI bank to deposit money in My ICICI NRE account.
Story is like this, I went to India this summer deposited money to several mutual funds from my ICICI NRe account. One of the investment (in franklin ) was wrong by the mistake of my agent ( because US person can not invest in some of the US based mututal funds and frankln is US based fund) So I had to struggle to get money back from Franklin, as it was not proper investment ( wer mentioned NRE US based in forms, so they should have out right rejected investment, but they alloted it and then I have to fght back to get it returned)
Luckly due to my correct application I was able to get money back from franklin. they issued RS check, which I tried to deposit to my NRE account at ICICI bank. ICICI rejected check saying it is in RS. I tried to persue them it is REFUND FROM MUTUAL FUND (NRE INVESTMENT) from the same ICICI account but they still wants the proof that it NRE money. I have still this check bouncing back between me and ICCI bank. I also approached franklin to get letter. This time they have qouted some earlier RBI rule ( I have not read letter) and I am trying to redeposit that with check again.
Here in this My bigger question is we all are investing lot of Money from NRE account in Mutual funds and other investment options available to US in India as NRI. but when it comes to getting money back in our NRE account ( naturally all returns/refunds from India investment will be in RUPEES CHECKS ONLY) then we have big trouble like One I am facing right now.
SO DOES OUR INVESTMENT IS TRUELY REPRETRIABLE.
WE CAN GET OUR ORIGINAL INVESTMENT AS WELL AS GAINS ON THAT BACK TO NRE ACCOUNT OR NOT
IS IT THE ICICI BANK ONLY or ALL OTHER BANKS ARE GIVING TROUBLE wHEN WE TRY TO REDEPOSIT OUR MONEY ( in rupees) back to our NRE account.
Please explain your experiences in this regard.
If possible also provide links that talk in more details about REPRETRIABILITY OF NRE INVESTMENT
Also let me know which is best NRE bank to work with without any such hassles in India?
Dude,
ICICI sucks......i hate those guys.....their claims are big but poor banking and customer service......personally i have found SBI to be best although they are little slow.
On the top of it....sending money for investment is a bad idea......I have already lost money in it....and now facing issues getting money back.
In the whole episode, I lost so much peace of mind that money that grew in India was not worth........I guess there is a limit to what we want but greed inside us still ask us to invest.....let it be hard way....but I have learnt a lesson....if I have to live in US....it is better that I find investment opportunities here and live a "peaceful life". At the end we all need peace !!!
more...
makeup Posted on: June 8th, 2011Rita
nikh
10-24 03:47 PM
july 2nd filer
http://www..com/discuss/485eb/63774255/
http://www..com/discuss/485eb/63774255/
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WeShallOvercome
07-06 02:36 PM
They would just increase the fees , and we will paying them that money back.
State never looses...
Even in that case, all the benefits they were hoping to get from increased fees will be lost - and much more than that.
Average fee hike is $500 but average reimbursement of expenses would be atleast $1000
State never looses...
Even in that case, all the benefits they were hoping to get from increased fees will be lost - and much more than that.
Average fee hike is $500 but average reimbursement of expenses would be atleast $1000
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ags123
04-07 04:01 PM
Thanks Karthik but I am just an MS :)
But one thin I enjoy is problem solving and this is one of the hardest out there as it is dynamic.
With Eb3 India the Horizontal spillover methodology kills most hope as there is the large Eb2 India backlog. In 2007(I think) the vertical spillover methodology was followed and Eb3 India got 17000 or so visa numbers. So with Horizontal spillover and no number increase I am sorry to say movement is limited.
But one thin I enjoy is problem solving and this is one of the hardest out there as it is dynamic.
With Eb3 India the Horizontal spillover methodology kills most hope as there is the large Eb2 India backlog. In 2007(I think) the vertical spillover methodology was followed and Eb3 India got 17000 or so visa numbers. So with Horizontal spillover and no number increase I am sorry to say movement is limited.
21stIcon
02-19 12:59 PM
Folks,
I bought whole life insurance for my wife year ago for $300k from PRUDENTIAL, monthly premium is $116/month but $72 went to admin. and tran. charges. Although I paid $1276 last year, my balance was $476 after 25.2 % return on funds. whole life has surrender charges apart from hefty financial charges ,so you can not withdraw when you want.
I took $1500 loss and canceled my whole life insurance policy since I do not want to waste 70% of my premium as a financial charges.you are feeding for a company and agent s getting heavy commission on this.
Buy term life insurance and invest in Vanguard Index funds for investment purpose.
I bought whole life insurance for my wife year ago for $300k from PRUDENTIAL, monthly premium is $116/month but $72 went to admin. and tran. charges. Although I paid $1276 last year, my balance was $476 after 25.2 % return on funds. whole life has surrender charges apart from hefty financial charges ,so you can not withdraw when you want.
I took $1500 loss and canceled my whole life insurance policy since I do not want to waste 70% of my premium as a financial charges.you are feeding for a company and agent s getting heavy commission on this.
Buy term life insurance and invest in Vanguard Index funds for investment purpose.
eb3India
04-08 03:09 PM
Going back might be a good call. But the truth is, no matter how much money you got, how secured you are, the bottom-line is that the call has to come from the individual.
I will share my concern. I was 23 when I moved here and I already spent 10 years of prime life here in this country. After finishing my college, I worked in India for a year and half, and as any young adult I grew up thinking one day, I will change the way life operates in India. There is a system which operates India. It is powerful, normal human like you and I cannot overcome the system. People like Gandhi could, they are willing to sacrifice them self for the best of others. Or you could people like our current politicians who know how to work the system. People like lallu, Jaya, Karunanidhi, Naidu etc, they grew up as a part of the system. For them even when killing someone, they might not feel the remorse. But you and I cannot even bribe without feeling bad, which is good. But the question is how long can you sustain that? I am not 23 anymore; Now, I know what responsibility is all about. I have 2 kids; I don�t know whether I am hard enough to fight the system at this current stage of my life.
There is a famous quote, which states that there is a breaking point for every human, once we are pushed beyond that point, your action does not originate from your brain. In other words you will become part of the system.
For me this is the main concern. When I talk to people here who wants to go back, they say that they will buy a house in some close community and they will live a happy life inside. For me that�s a fools dream. You cannot shut off from others, may be for a month or two, soon you have to face the real world.
So the answer for your question like in this question. How are you going to handle the system in India? I do not believe that things will change. May be in 25 years; Not anytime soon. So until then you have to live a life where in you have to adjust to the system.
I do not have an answer to the question. How will I manage the day to day life? If you know the answer let me know
- ;)
I think I know you, sorry I am kidding :), cuz pretty much everyone's story is very similar to yours, I tend to agree with you, but itz not that bad, infact I would itz a good gamble if you return now you will be going to emerging market and you might endup making most of it, About bribe and corruption if you study the history it was created out of bad politics and system as things are changing with better system it will be reversed, you will never have political system with out corruption atleast there none exist on face of the earth, I am positive about India and itz growth,
Main issue for me is CHANGE, when I came I was just alone young with lots of hope, now I am an old man with family, however I brought a house back in India and couple of sites which are giving me good returns, so I do have plan B
I will share my concern. I was 23 when I moved here and I already spent 10 years of prime life here in this country. After finishing my college, I worked in India for a year and half, and as any young adult I grew up thinking one day, I will change the way life operates in India. There is a system which operates India. It is powerful, normal human like you and I cannot overcome the system. People like Gandhi could, they are willing to sacrifice them self for the best of others. Or you could people like our current politicians who know how to work the system. People like lallu, Jaya, Karunanidhi, Naidu etc, they grew up as a part of the system. For them even when killing someone, they might not feel the remorse. But you and I cannot even bribe without feeling bad, which is good. But the question is how long can you sustain that? I am not 23 anymore; Now, I know what responsibility is all about. I have 2 kids; I don�t know whether I am hard enough to fight the system at this current stage of my life.
There is a famous quote, which states that there is a breaking point for every human, once we are pushed beyond that point, your action does not originate from your brain. In other words you will become part of the system.
For me this is the main concern. When I talk to people here who wants to go back, they say that they will buy a house in some close community and they will live a happy life inside. For me that�s a fools dream. You cannot shut off from others, may be for a month or two, soon you have to face the real world.
So the answer for your question like in this question. How are you going to handle the system in India? I do not believe that things will change. May be in 25 years; Not anytime soon. So until then you have to live a life where in you have to adjust to the system.
I do not have an answer to the question. How will I manage the day to day life? If you know the answer let me know
- ;)
I think I know you, sorry I am kidding :), cuz pretty much everyone's story is very similar to yours, I tend to agree with you, but itz not that bad, infact I would itz a good gamble if you return now you will be going to emerging market and you might endup making most of it, About bribe and corruption if you study the history it was created out of bad politics and system as things are changing with better system it will be reversed, you will never have political system with out corruption atleast there none exist on face of the earth, I am positive about India and itz growth,
Main issue for me is CHANGE, when I came I was just alone young with lots of hope, now I am an old man with family, however I brought a house back in India and couple of sites which are giving me good returns, so I do have plan B
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